TOS 1.04 und 1.62 verbessert

[KarlMüller]

a complete Atari-TOS with your patches?

Geht ja wohl nicht da würde er ja gehen das Urheberrecht verstossen. Wurde deswegen KAOS nicht auch als Patch versand?

[Petari]

...
Would you sell your diffs/patches, or a complete Atari-TOS with your patches?

It is not possible to distribute this with/as 'patches' . Es ist unmöglich verteilen (liefern zu Leute) es mit/als 'Flecken'   
Whole TOS is reassembled with optimisations - to make code shorter and have space for new functions. And there are too many changes - over 1000 corrections only in FAT16 code. Nothing is on same location as it was in original TOS binaries,
Repeating: not Patch, modding, improving, rework.
Hopefully tomorrow new page will be ready and online.

[goetz @ 3rz]

...
Would you sell your diffs/patches, or a complete Atari-TOS with your patches?

It is not possible to distribute this with/as 'patches' . Es ist unmöglich verteilen (liefern zu Leute) es mit/als 'Flecken'   
Whole TOS is reassembled with optimisations - to make code shorter and have space for new functions. And there are too many changes - over 1000 corrections only in FAT16 code. Nothing is on same location as it was in original TOS binaries,
Repeating: not Patch, modding, improving, rework.
Hopefully tomorrow new page will be ready and online.

And still you could sell the bindiff instead of the whole package. That would include only your code and no Atari-code, right?

Our moderator @Johannes has to be quite strict when it comes to pointing/linking/advertising for software where the copyright or authorship may be violated, due to local laws. And I can understand that, we all don’t want a forum shutdown because of unnecessary legal issues.

[Johannes]

Dear all,

I would like to encourage you, to keep the discussion to a level that does not drifts into personal offences. On all sides. If that is not possible, I will close the thread.

Also we do not want two threads for the same topic here, so I closed the later one. Please stick to this one.

@gh-baden is right: Copyright infringements are nothing we want to deal with. So if there is evidence that a site may contain copyrighted contents which publication/selling or something similar conflicts with german law, we will remove that link. @Petari please state that the site that are you linking does not offer copyright protected items for sale like an ATARI TOS or parts of it or its copyrighted concepts. Otherwise I would like to ask you to remove the link. I think people, that want to get in contact with you, know how to do this

Best regards
Johannes

----------------------------

Hallo zusammen,

ich möchte euch daran erinnern, dass wir die Diskussion hier auf einem sachlichen Level halten möchten, das nicht in persönliche Angriffe abdriftet. Auf allen Seiten. Wenn das nicht möglich ist, werde ich den Thread schliessen.

Auch möchten wir nicht mehrere Threads für ein Thema haben, deshalb habe ich den zweiten geschlossen. Bitte bleibt beim Thema hier.

@gh-baden hat Recht: Copyrightverletzungen sind nichts, womit wir uns rumschlagen wollen. Sollte es also Beweise geben, dass eine Seite urheberrechtlich geschützt INhalte beinhaltet, deren Veröffentlichung oder deren Verkauf mit dem deutschen Gsesetzt im Widerspruch steht, werde ich den Link dahin löschen. @Petari bitte bestätige, dass die Verlinkung zu der Seite keine urheberrechtlich geschützten Dinge zum Kauf anbietet, wie ein ATARI TOS, Teile davon oder seiner urheberrechtlich geschützten Konzepte. Andernfalls bitte ich dich, den Link zu entfernen. Ich denke, die PErsonen, die Dich kontaktieren möchten, wissen wie das geht

Viele Grüße
Johannes

[Petari]

Dear all,

I would like to encourage you, to keep the discussion to a level that does not drifts into personal offences. On all sides. If that is not possible, I will close the thread.

----------------------------

Hallo zusammen,

ich möchte euch daran erinnern, dass wir die Diskussion hier auf einem sachlichen Level halten möchten, das nicht in persönliche Angriffe abdriftet. Auf allen Seiten. Wenn das nicht möglich ist, werde ich den Thread schliessen.
....

Personal offenses happened, and they are still in this thread, despite I clearly proved that they are not only incorrect, but nonsense. I spent hours and hours to do it.

Now, about possible copyright problems: I don't sell other's work, only mine. Surely some hardcore open source and freeware people may find it as not nice or whatever. I learned in my life that most of people, decent people will gladly pay for someone's hard work. So, I got some extra money for my hard disk driver SW - many people paid more than it's price (10 Euros). Then diverse donations about my work on adapting games (over 1200).  If I'd sell unmodded TOS to people, that would be copyright infrigment.  Then, how's that if something like TOS is still under copyright nobody cares that there are sites where you can DL all possible TOS versions ?
What I do is - make it simple. Surely, I could spend some time to make difference file, something like Amiga WHDL - so people will need original game to make WHDL version (for hard disk).  And how SW will know is it original floppy or well done copy ?
But that would be very hard to perform. And I already explained that whole code is optimized, that I packed RSC data. What means that original code is not on same location where was before reassembling. That binary diff file then should contain not only what is added, changed, but complete list of all changes in original code - of course here I mean changing addresses of code, changing addresses of branches. What is on at least 100000 locations.

In case of TOS, if I would send to people difference file (patch in some way), they would need to have image of their TOS version and perform update,  First problem: making image file of ROM TOS - easy with proper SW, I wrote it. Second problem: burn EPROMs . What people without programmer should do ? Send me updated image ? But I already have it.  Nonsense. Not to mention what people with TOS 1.00-1.02 should do ? Ask original TOS 1.04 from current copyright holder ? Sure, they will send them it in 2018 .... Nobody cares about Atari ST TOS copyright, since at max year 2007 .
Btw. did Thorsten Otto break something when published sources for TOS 2.06-3.06 ?
I'm sorry, but this is something stupidest what I seen ever in some forums. Some just don't like that me do it, because don't like that I said some things to some people. And i said correct things, not lies. Truth can hurt. Whoewer came with that copyright thing found great excuse to make my project advertising here impossible, it seems. Well, be sure that there will be German people buying it, and I worked already on German TOS versions too.
KAOS is mentioned - it is not complete new code. And yet, some people sold it. Not as patch, as complete ROM content.  For end I'm asking: was it right ?

[1ST1]

Petari, you did great work, and if you offer your mod, you can do that. If people like, they buy it, depending on price. Selling it might legally be in grey region. Officially TOS is still copyrighted by ATARI (a company which has nothing to do anymore with the company which produced our beloved computers). On the others side this current company called ATARI doesn't care on these old computer products anymore, they only still porfit from old games. TOS is like abandoned, but that company never has release a statement on this, but many websides offer TOS ROMs and ATARI system diskettes for download without any trouble. On the other side your TOS versions are much more heavily modified than TOS for Thunder/Storm TT expansion (+IDE, +optimized mem support, +winx changes) whis is also offered here through the forum.

Hard to decide.

Four questions:
1. Would you also add your modifications also to EmuTOS?
2. Would you be able to fix some bugs in BigDOS (only binary available) "modern" FAT 16 driver by Rainer Seitel? (We have a discussion on this forum about these bugs, we tryed to contact the author, but no success) - or make completely new BIGDOS version which is compatible from TOS 1.00 to 4.04, 68000-68080?
3. Same filesystem modifications and Floppy image support for TOS 1.04, 2.06/3.06, 4.04?
4. Virtual Floppy image driver for standard TOS?
That would be great.

[goetz @ 3rz]

Four questions:
1. Would you also add your modifications also to EmuTOS?
2. Would you be able to fix some bugs in BigDOS (only binary available) "modern" FAT 16 driver by Rainer Seitel? (We have a discussion on this forum about these bugs, we tryed to contact the author, but no success) - or make completely new BIGDOS version which is compatible from TOS 1.00 to 4.04, 68000-68080?
3. Same filesystem modifications and Floppy image support for TOS 1.04, 2.06/3.06, 4.04?
4. Virtual Floppy image driver for standard TOS?
That would be great.

You forgot to add "Atari Microbox OS, full Linux/Win/FreeBSD/macOS&BeOS compatible. Doesn’t need to support Atari 2600 cartridges, if that’s additional work".

[Petari]

Petari, you did great work, and if you offer your mod, you can do that. If people like, they buy it, depending on price. Selling it might legally be in grey region. Officially TOS is still copyrighted by ATARI (a company which has nothing to do anymore with the company which produced our beloved computers). On the others side this current company called ATARI doesn't care on these old computer products anymore, they only still porfit from old games. TOS is like abandoned, but that company never has release a statement on this, but many websides offer TOS ROMs and ATARI system diskettes for download without any trouble. On the other side your TOS versions are much more heavily modified than TOS for Thunder/Storm TT expansion (+IDE, +optimized mem support, +winx changes) whis is also offered here through the forum.

Hard to decide.

Four questions:
1. Would you also add your modifications also to EmuTOS?
2. Would you be able to fix some bugs in BigDOS (only binary available) "modern" FAT 16 driver by Rainer Seitel? (We have a discussion on this forum about these bugs, we tryed to contact the author, but no success) - or make completely new BIGDOS version which is compatible from TOS 1.00 to 4.04, 68000-68080?
3. Same filesystem modifications and Floppy image support for TOS 1.04, 2.06/3.06, 4.04?
4. Virtual Floppy image driver for standard TOS?
That would be great.

As I know, TOS copyright is not anymore in hands of Atari, but sime German firm - maybe ASH ?
Not that it us much relevant. You are right that it is in grey region. But lot of it is. For instance how people gets this days new movies, new serial episodes. DL-ing them from Rapidgator, Openload (nice name, btw.). They are called File sharing services, and you may see there some copyright blah, forms to report illegal material (copyright infrigment) - but that's only pose. In reality, whole system works on base that they have no control about what people will upload there, and they take no responsibility. If someone claims copyright, they will remove it. But someone other will soon upload it again.
With this longer txt. I just wanted to show, that there are much bigger problems today than 30 years Atari TOS copyright. And $ billions are in question only in movie piracy.

1. No way that I deal with EmuTOS. It is pretty much different than TOS. And I'm not good C coder. I did everything in ASM.

2. Fixing bugs in BIgDOS ? No reason for it. And without it's C sources (surely was done in C) that would be enormous work.
Sorry, I have impression that you did not understand what my FAT16 improving means: it does practically same as BigDOS - direct access to BigDOS partitions - so those over 32 KB, But without using extra RAM, and even with lower RAM usage of hard disk driver than in case of TOS/DOS compatible partitions. TOS now can handle both - AHDI type and DOS type partitions over 32 KB, without any extra SW. You create 1GB FAT16 partitions in Windows, and TOS will be able to access it, even more effiecient than AHDI partitions.
In short: no need to fix BigDOS, no need to use it at all with improved TOS.

3, Same for TOS 1.04 ? I talk all time that TOS 1.04 is what is improved (together with 1.62)
2.06 - explained that there is special way to use it as combo with 1,04 or 1.62 GEMDOS part.
3.06, 4.04 - what us wrong with you people ? Want  that me spend next 2 years with this ?
Yes, that would need another min 1000 hours of work, Let's just stay for now at what is already done.
Those later TOS versions are pretty different than 1.xx .
4. Virtual floppy is not simple driver. There is already Floppy Image Runner for standard TOS versions.  Virtual floppy is much more advanced, needs less RAM, etc. But it must be in TOS ROM. No way that it work as driver.

I think that part of the problem is that I made some unusual solutions, and people think in traditional way. All this needs more time to understand.
Finally, this modded, improved TOS, especially of 1.04 is most similar to KAOS TOS - authors of it did same reassembling and/or recompiling of TOS 1,04 (only German v,) like me - so original code, what is not changed is not on same locations. Anyone seen KAOS patch for TOS 1.04 De ? Because I seen only binary (image) .

[1ST1]

TOS is still in hands of Atari. No ASH, no Medusa, no one else than them has copyrights. Medusa has right to use it in Firebee and other clones, that's it. Maybe ATARI don't care about TOS, but we don't know. Look at Nintendo and Sony which fight against any website offering ROMs for their first consoles (NES, PS1), almost as old as TOS.

1. would you open specifications that others can implement it in EmuTOS?

2. BigDOS is more interesting for TT and Falcon, where memory usage is not that important. Your fixes would be welcome as BigDOS has some strange bugs. 

3. TT, M-STE & Falcon also can't run with TOS 1.62 but they also would profit from your changes. Sourcecode of TOS 2.06/3.06 is available.

[Petari]

Considering talk about commercial distribution: I started new thread with intention to make it more clear, to get rid of off-topic and insinuating posts from known programmer. But that thread is locked, and admin wants that we talk all it in this thread. No problem for me, but I need to copy here what stays there in first post:

"
Ich werde antworten auf alle Fragen welche sind um geschriebte Versionen. 1.04i, 1.62i und ihre 'kombos' mit 2.06 . So, ja, Leute kann haben Desktop von 2.06 mit GEMDOS von 1.04/1.62 - und das ist beste bei mich - besser SW Kompatibilitat und best ST(E) Desktop .
Sogar mein TOS 1.04i ist Mega STE kompatibel. Diese Projekt dauert schon zu viele Zeit. Gleich ganze Jahr."

Ich werde trotzdem das antworten zum Fragen von 1ST1 . Aber es ist letzte mal. Kein mehr Antworten zum off-topic Fragen.
<English mode on>
1. Why would I open specifikations for 'concurrent' EmuTOS . If they want to deal with features like imroved, BigDOS compatible FAT16 then they can do it without me. Specs are well known. Furthermore, I think that in later versions of EmuTOS it is already done. But I don't know exact parameters. Other things, like Virtual Floppy, Statesaves  are very own ideas and pure ASM code.
But main thing is that EmuTOS team will not deal with it. Or anyone other. At least not for some time.
Later, maybe year or more later, if people find that what I did is useful things can change, and someone will want to work on it.  Then I can give detailed specs. Will see what will future bring to us.

2. This has nothing with TT and Falcon. I talk all time about TOS versions for ST and STE.
If you really want that I deal with TOS versions for  them, please motivate me. Yes, I can do it, in some 1000 ++ hours of work. In other words, do something that what is currently available, what is done sells better.
I will not deal ever with fixing program BigDOS. What I made is much better: no more need for BigDOS.
If want same on TT and Falcon, why not using MagiC for instance ? For other possibilities - look above. Or talk with some C coder, who can mod C sources for real DOS compatible FAT16 in 2.06/3.06. 4.06 still not solvable that way (unless sources are available).
I even started thread in exxos forum about it:
https://www.exxoshost.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=929
It's just ceased in July.

3. Actually Mega STE can run with my modded TOS 1.62, and even with impr. 1.04 so look this:
"Sogar mein TOS 1.04i ist Mega STE kompatibel. "

Sourcecode of 2.06 and 3.06 is still under copyright, isn't ?
And I do all in ASM. I don't like C, not good with it. Atari ST is old computer, and TOS would be much better if they'd decide to do complete TOS in ASM. Then it would be shorter, and they would not need to bother with Line-F emulation in TOS 1.00-1.04 , what was implemented to save some 6 KB space, and TOS can fit in 192 KB. Not to mention better speed for instance.
And who is who made complete OS for Atari ST and followers in ASM - MagiC team 
That's nice SW, and I was involved in translating latest version in English (older ones had problems on Falcons with IDE disks). But I really did not use it seriously. I'm good with old single tasking TOS. 8 MHz machine is not really for multitasking. I like that it work fast, boot fast. And SW has big influence in speed too.

[Atariosimus]

Petari  macht das auf eigenes Risiko. Falls er eine Copyrightverletzung nicht
ausräumen kann, kann es teuer werden. Auch wenn es angeblich komplett umgestrikt
ist und mit dem UR TOS wenig gemeinsam hat.

Erinnere da nur wie Anwälte sich bei uns mit dem Impressum austoben.
Unterlassungsklagen etc. sind da schnell aufgesetzt. Vielleicht
hat man in Ungarn bessere Chancen als bei uns dem zu entgehen.

Andererseits, wenn man sieht wo man das original TOS überall seit Jahren runterladen
kann, scheint die Gefahr gering. Aber das muss jeder selbst wissen.

Bei einem grossen kommerziellen Erfolg wollen alle was abhaben.
Siehe auch Youtubeseiten die in Deutschland nicht ohne Tricks
angezeigt werden können wegen Rechteverletzung. Die Musikindustrie
ist da ganz übel.

Nur den riesen kommerziellen Erfolg sehe ich hier nicht wirklich.

[mfro]

Petari  macht das auf eigenes Risiko.

Das kann jeder halten, wie er will.

Wenn dieses Tun aber das letzte verbliebene deutschsprachige Atari-Forum gefährdet, dann habe ich dazu eine klare Meinung.

[Petari]

Natürlich ist das dieses nie werden riesen kommerzialen Erfolg. Ich habe nicht gemacht es wegen Geld.
Max anzahl von Leute welche wird kaufen es Ich sehe um 100 .
Dann warum Ich verbrachte so viel Zeit mit ? Ich liebe machen Etwas gut. Ich war mir bewusst über TOS Limitazionen. Ich möchte neue Lösungen. Alles diese Atari Aktivitat ist mehr fun für mich als Fernsehen schauen. Und sicherlich ist mehr nützlich - für main Hirn auch. It keeps my Brain fit    ( könnte nicht übersetzen richtig) .

[Petari]

...
Wenn dieses Tun aber das letzte verbliebene deutschsprachige Atari-Forum gefährdet, dann habe ich dazu eine klare Meinung.

Well, if admin sees this as real Risk for this forum, I will ask to delete whole this thread + that locked thread. Where should I promote this ? Forum will not deal with any form of distribution. All will be done in e-mail communication, as it is with my hard disk driver SW - which is certainly 100% my work, code.
How's that at atariage nobody came with that this may be legal issue and potential danger for that forum. Honestly, I'm already sick with this reception.
Admin, please lock this thread.
Any further communication in e-mail.  petari@8bitchip.info    .

[Petari]

Für die Ende bissele benchmark:

Done on Mega STE, with same UltraSatan, with 2 SD cards with practically same speed.
Test is just copying SUBDIR with 80 very short files to some other SUBDIR on partition.

Regular TOS 2.06 :

Almost empty 500 MB partition:
At 8 MHz: 39 sec , at 16 MHz 27 sec

Regular TOS 1.04, at 8 MHz for same as above: 38 sec - marginally faster.

Improved TOS 1.04 (without need for large sectors), DOS FAT16 partition of 1000 MB, almost empty:
No added buffers, only base 2 KB, what TOS creates after boot.
At 8 MHz: 26 sec , at 16 MHz: 17 sec
With 32 KB added buffers:
8 MHz - 25 sec, 16 MHz - 17 sec - marginal improvement, or just in range of test error.

Conclusion - with fast Flash card solutions buffer size improves speed not much. But better TOS FAT16 code can improve it a lot. With even less RAM usage.

[Atariosimus]

@Petari: Deine Seite ist bekannt insofern muss hier kein extra Link gesetzt werden.
Du allein trägst damit das Risiko einer Abmahnung falls jemand meint das Atari Imperium
wird schwer geschädigt.

Ich denke damit kann der Rest der Gemeinde gut leben.

Jedenfalls find ich es sehr gut, dass es überhaupt noch ein paar Leute gibt die Assembler
programmieren können und wollen für den 68000. Insofern mach weiter so.
Im Grunde machst Du ja schon sehr lange kostenlose Werbung für Atari mit neuen Ideen.
Eigentlich sollte das viel mehr gewürdigt werden.

[mfro]

... How's that at atariage nobody came with that this may be legal issue and potential danger for that forum. Honestly, I'm already sick with this reception.

Just because they are not liable to German law?

[Nervengift]

TOS is still in hands of Atari. No ASH, no Medusa, no one else than them has copyrights.

I think that's not completely correct. Milan Computer had a licence and perhaps they or their successors still have that licence. They also modified their TOS for usage with their Milan boards. I also think that (Fire)TOS (a modified Falcon TOS 4.0.4) only could be used with the Firebee due to the licence of Milan Computer. Milan Computer allowed Medusa to use this licence?

[1ST1]

A licence to use/modify is not a copyright.

@Pera: I don't want to boot Magic! to start games and demos from a 1 GB partition... makes really no sense.

[Petari]

And show goes on ...  Who forces you to start games from 1GB partition ? You can use 20 MB partitions with improved TOS if you want.
First read page about all improvements and new features, then come back here. You know, some OS is never made according to 1 user's needs - but to be useful for many-many people.
And yes, there are such, who will be happy with 1 GB partitions.
Please stop spamming here if have nothing to ask about what is available.
And I don't care is it license, copyright or whatever. I did actually what every normal company should be grateful for. Now Atari or whoever will suffer losses in millions because I modding TOS what is not in sale over 23 years. Go and sue me if you are so upset about what I did.

Close this thread, please.